Author Topic: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."  (Read 5194 times)

Gen. Dreedle

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Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2014, 09:23:07 AM »
That is why I do not use simulation s/w.

That..........and I am too stupid to figure out how to make one work.

The point is................he can claim any number he wants...............the dirty truth is that is probably good enough. You would gag if you saw what I use. Yet, I get really good results.
"Major Danby, sir."
"Danby. D-A-N-B-Y."
"Take him out and shoot him."
"Sir?"
"I said take him out and shoot him. Can't you hear?"

MystereoN

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Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2014, 12:56:22 PM »
Interesting.
Every time I changed power supply for clock, there was difference. Sometimes worse, sometimes better, but it was always audible.

After extensive listening test with friends, all 3 pin regulators and modern super-duper SMT 3, 4, 5, 6 or 8 pin regulators were rejected and two regs came into great finale:
a) linear regulator with PNP and mysterius opamp from Linear Technology
b) shunt regulator based on fast opamp from Analog Devices.

Majority of friends rejected linear regulator because "too slow, music not flowing, music too sticky to the speaker, to much polished, highs are not OK, ...blah, blah..." and prefered shunt regulator. For me it was draw, some songs were better with linear reg and some were better with shunt. I could live with either of those two.

If I remember there is "Stimpy regulator" thread or something similar. PCB for aforementioned shunt should be inside.
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Gen. Dreedle

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Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2014, 01:43:27 PM »
A buddy, who shall remain nameless and anonymous, mainly because he has better sense to read any of these forums (or so he says, but not sure that I believe him) likes to not only play around with the regulators, but the bypass caps. I have tons of e-mails from him, detailing how this cap sounds mushy, and that one sounds thin, etc.

He can not believe that I can not see any differences, with any of this, when measuring phase noise. It is true: I can not. Now, if he says he can hear a difference, and you claim the same, I am not going to contradict you. I will simply say that once you get to a certain level of performance, you can not measure the difference.

If we just had a framework, I'm sure you could find the measurements, right?
"Major Danby, sir."
"Danby. D-A-N-B-Y."
"Take him out and shoot him."
"Sir?"
"I said take him out and shoot him. Can't you hear?"

MystereoN

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Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2014, 06:08:31 PM »
Framework...is...work.... work is not good and framework is even worse...please go away with framework.....no framework for me, I don't care.

I just learned my lesson in digital audio, whatever you do to the clock or clock distribution chip or clock power supply...is audible. Thanks to you and your lessons.
But i can't draw conclucions or establish a framework from this. What work best in one situation, could not work in another situation. Anyone should listen and thrust his own ears, this is the only way.

If some moron want to create framework from this, I don't care. His problem, not mine. Whatever floats his boat, I just don't care about framework. Actually, I hate all kind of frames  :)
Never argue with a fool,
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then beat you with their experience!!!

Gen. Dreedle

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Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2014, 11:13:37 PM »
They're still at it...........and just as screwed up as they were at Greaser's Palace.

Why in the hell are they using U. fl. connectors? Nothing like using some flimsy crap designed to work at 2 GHz....................gee.................yeah, that will really keep radiation and leakage to a minimum.

"Use some  copper, son. You'll enjoy it better."
"Major Danby, sir."
"Danby. D-A-N-B-Y."
"Take him out and shoot him."
"Sir?"
"I said take him out and shoot him. Can't you hear?"

MystereoN

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Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2014, 03:17:51 PM »
Since we're talking clocks.....

Quote
Since the really important stuff, for digital audio is the stuff below 1 Hz.............

Reads logical and reasonable......if you manage to improve phase noise at 0.1 Hz, then phase noise at 1 Hz....10 Hz.....100 Hz will be lower too.
How step is slope from 0.1 to 1 Hz? 30dB per decade? 40?
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Gen. Dreedle

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Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2014, 06:26:33 PM »
Usually, it is 30 dB/dec. Sometimes 35...........sometimes 40.............it varies, but 30 dB is the norm.

Now, as to what happens at 0.01 Hz..........

Yes, if you lower that, you would think what happens at 1 Hz (or 10 Hz) also goes down.

THAT IS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE!

Think of it the other way around: if 1 Hz goes up, 0.01 Hz goes up. But, there are tricks that lower 0.01 Hz that have no effect at 1 Hz.

(Think a case where the noise now goes up at 40-45 dB/dec, not 30 dB/dec.)

Jitter at 0.01 Hz is combination of the crystal, and some other external factors. No, I do not know the exact cause. The gang of idiots I hang out with spent 6 months just trying to find out there was a cause. We had hints something was up, but as our original gear only went down to 0.1 Hz, it was hard to see anything going on. Once we could look down to 0.01 Hz.................WOW!!! Some really interesting things going on.

Some folks (maybe some guy who listens on K-horns) will never be able to tell any of this, since their systems do not have the ability to resolve such audible nuances, and will kvetch, saying it is "fairy tales". To them, it probably is. I know they have never heard a good clock, because they do not have the ability to build a good clock. You can not build a good clock without modern phase noise gear. It is simply not possible. (Implies that 99% of what we think is important to make a low jitter clock for digital audio is a lot of useless crap.)

And even if you do have modern phase noise gear, you may not have an audio system that is up to the task of being able to tell any of this.

Sadly, my system may fall into this category. But, I personally do not care, and it does not stop me from trying to build a better clock.
"Major Danby, sir."
"Danby. D-A-N-B-Y."
"Take him out and shoot him."
"Sir?"
"I said take him out and shoot him. Can't you hear?"

MystereoN

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Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2014, 11:42:44 AM »
Tnx.
I was asking because of pic bellow, where lowest freq is defined as "random walk" with 40dB/decade.
Pic courtesy of NIST technical note 1337.
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Gen. Dreedle

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Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2014, 08:06:48 PM »
Their explanation makes as much sense as anything I can say. IOW, there is nothing about it that contradicts our measurements.

"Other environment effects" sums it up as best as I can. All I can say it really does exist, and there is nothing (at least that "we" were taught) that even brings up the possibility it exists, let alone how to deal with it.

So, the bottom line is "other environmental effects" can cause a rise in the really low frequency stuff, and reducing it has no effect on 1 Hz and up.

Make sense now?
"Major Danby, sir."
"Danby. D-A-N-B-Y."
"Take him out and shoot him."
"Sir?"
"I said take him out and shoot him. Can't you hear?"

MystereoN

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Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2014, 06:26:22 AM »
Yes, with your explanation and pic above it make sense now.
Never argue with a fool,
they will drag you down to their level,
then beat you with their experience!!!

seagreen

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Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2014, 05:34:13 AM »
This brings into question what the actual system response is to those low frequencies.  Most amplifiers will not pass .01 Hz straight through, for a host of reasons.  Speakers?  Maybe, maybe not. 

So, that suggests non-linearities caused by low frequency modulation, doesn't it?

That's hardly unreasonable, given that thermal modulation in most all amplifier stages has been shown to be a problem.  That's measured in large portions or seconds or even multiple seconds.  (Walt Jung has actually published measurements of the effects.)

Plus, most everybody has observed audible changes by changing the mechanical supports under a DAC box, haven't they? 

OK, that probably stretches things too far.  I guess it's hard to have an open mind when your dogma is constantly pissing on you.

No double blind testing was used in the making of this post.

Gen. Dreedle

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Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2014, 07:39:45 PM »
That is what most  folks can not get past: you are hearing the effect(s) of the modulation, not the actual modulation. (Yes, if your dogma is doing you-know-what...........well, you have problems that you are unwilling to admit.)

How "random walk" modulation affects localization.............I would be lying if I even tried to render a guess. I just know it is real, and have heard it, many many times. (I strongly suspect guys who listen to K-horns are never going to be able to hear any of that, so they will kvetch. Tough garbanzo beans.)

I can say the effect that we can measure clearly has a cycle in the 4-5 second range.

Interestingly, The Devil noticed a similar problem, in the design phase of the Vendetta phono preamp. That proves it is all nonsense and bravo sierra.
"Major Danby, sir."
"Danby. D-A-N-B-Y."
"Take him out and shoot him."
"Sir?"
"I said take him out and shoot him. Can't you hear?"

seagreen

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Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2014, 11:18:03 AM »
I've read that a subtle thing animals do when localizing a sound source is to move their heads little bits to change the relative arrival times of the incoming sound.  You can certainly watch dogs do that.  Maybe not dogmas, though.

So, I bet that if a listener's seat was moving around at a slow rate, they'd hear the effects.

Is low frequency modulation any different?

Speaking of K-horns...  Paul Klipsch his own self published papers about these effects in loudspeakers back in the 60's in the Journal of the AES.
No double blind testing was used in the making of this post.