Jocko Homo Audio

Audio Topics => Digital Audio Stuff => Topic started by: Gen. Dreedle on August 12, 2014, 07:00:22 AM

Title: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on August 12, 2014, 07:00:22 AM
We're Only in It for the Money"?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Supper-Low-JITTER-Clock-11-2896Mhz-Rubidium-Frequency-/180497234806?pt=US_Radio_Tuners&hash=item2a06793b76 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Supper-Low-JITTER-Clock-11-2896Mhz-Rubidium-Frequency-/180497234806?pt=US_Radio_Tuners&hash=item2a06793b76)

Can't believe 32 people have bought one of these crappy things. And 13 of the 16.xxx MHz version.

Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Stewie on August 13, 2014, 02:56:02 PM
These things have gone up in price a lot lately  :(. Also when advertised as frequency standard. They must be running low on stock. I have a 10MHz version (as frequency standard) and that version is not considered low jitter. The adjustable version is even worse. Both use a DDS chip to get to the desired frequency. The 10MHz version is slightly adjustabe.

The last picture is strange, i think all of these things are adjusted by commands to the serial port, not with a pot. Weird.
The pot would be some fine adjusting on the RB physics side and i think they would program it to 11 or 16MHz before shipping.
So i would put a sticker over it with don't touch, instead of pointing to it in te add  :o

And yes, they are only in it for the money  ;)
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on August 19, 2014, 09:55:23 AM
For $25 (or maybe a bit more), you can buy a Morion. (Yes, surplus out of China.) I have several. Some are not as quiet as the others, but they are better than that codswallop.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Stewie on August 19, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
I know, bought similar stuff from out of China. A Piezo Technik and a nice Trimble, both 10MHz.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on August 19, 2014, 09:04:00 PM
I have a Trimble............paid too much, and the close-in noise stinks. Better noise floor than a Morion, but so what? Useless, for my work.

I keep it warm, just in case............
Title: Is this "Phase 5" ?
Post by: MystereoN on September 08, 2014, 05:57:38 AM
Phase 5 ? (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/261651-well-tempered-master-clock-building-low-phase-noise-jitter-crystal-oscillator.html)
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: seagreen on September 08, 2014, 11:00:19 AM
I see a pattern arising.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on September 10, 2014, 07:14:25 AM
Quote
...............personally I would build two identical clocks and just subtract 3dB from the measured output rather then trying to source a state of the art reference source.

That only works if they truly are identical. Well, that is what you should expect from someone who has never built 2 identical clocks. Especially 2 that are good enough to get the results the guy with the big nose gets.

"There is only one thing worse than being talked about, and that is to NOT being talked about."
"I wish I had said that."
"You will, Oscar, you will."
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on September 10, 2014, 07:20:44 AM
I found Phase 5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/234839-low-jitter-crystal-oscillator-ic-beta-tester-needed.html (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/234839-low-jitter-crystal-oscillator-ic-beta-tester-needed.html)

Look at the 1 Hz numbers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Horrible.

Maybe I should offer my consulting services.

So, your link is really Phase 6, since that goofy post is over a year old.

Not that anyone is really keeping track.............

BTW, are you going to stir the pot, and remind them how stupid I think they are? Just curious.

(BTW, it didn't cost $30k.............it used to cost $5k, now $10k+.)
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on September 15, 2014, 10:32:50 PM
Quote
I did ask Croven for a quote (5 pieces), but I got any reply from them.
I'm not sure they would supply such little quantity.

Will someone please put this idiot out of his misery?

And some of you guys still wonder why I hate hobbyists....................

IDIOT!
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on September 15, 2014, 10:35:17 PM
Quote
I have seen this claim but nothing that can support it.

I thought that this guy is supposed to be some sort of design guru.

Well, he probably is. This time he is just plain wrong.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on September 15, 2014, 10:38:33 PM
Quote
This thread also indirectly answers one of my questions, which is : what is the added jitter of a HC logic gate ? From the tests, it seems negligible. Good news !

You could ask someone who knows, instead of some idiot hobbyist. But, I digress.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on September 15, 2014, 10:39:54 PM
Quote
Well I learn than jitter & phase noise are the same with crystals. I also read than TCXO are not as good that it seems for audio... I also read than the ppm stability is not so important, btw some manufacter provide already more stabilised Crystal than they get artificialy older with heating !


Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..............................
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on September 15, 2014, 10:41:10 PM
Quote
If I look at the famous Crystek, i see than at 500 hz, the noise floor is -140 db ! Is it an usefull data or is it just the phase noise F and h2,h3... level which are important.

NO, IT IS NOT IMPORTANT!
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on September 15, 2014, 10:43:29 PM
Quote
i think this is a really interesting circuit: Low Phase Noise Design: Crystal Oscillators it uses the crystal as a bandpass filter as well as the oscillator to reduce the phase noise. There are a number of tricks worth studying.

"Been there, done that"..........................long time ago. I first saw that circuit in the 70s. Sounds like a good idea.................

Sounds like a good idea is all it is. Trust me.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on September 15, 2014, 10:46:13 PM
Quote
how about just buying a cheap cell tower surplused ovenized osc

Seriously?
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on September 15, 2014, 10:50:19 PM
Quote
When all the circuits will be ready, I can access a university lab to test them with an Agilent phase noise measurement system.

Yeah, and guess what........................

You don't know the tricks to measuring them. You won't get reliable data, below 1 Hz or so.

GFL, pal...................

And so what if you get halfway decent numbers, above 10 Hz? BFD. Of course, even that remains to be seen.

GFL, pal.................

"Go away, son, you bother me."
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on September 16, 2014, 10:57:24 AM
"Put a harmonic trap in it, son. You'll enjoy it better."
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: seagreen on September 16, 2014, 05:25:09 PM
Gee, do universities really have Keysight E5505's these days? 

Serious question: Do you think these guys have any idea of what they're looking for and why?
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: seagreen on September 17, 2014, 05:26:23 PM
Gee.  Some obscure guy published a paper about the effects and audibility of low frequency sidebands on audio signals.  OK, it was specific to loudspeakers, but the same thinking applies, does it not? 

http://www.readresearch.co.uk/loudspeaker_papers/klipsch_modulation_distortion_article_1.pdf (http://www.readresearch.co.uk/loudspeaker_papers/klipsch_modulation_distortion_article_1.pdf)

Plus...  In digital audio, these effects are present up through the top of the audible range.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on September 26, 2014, 12:37:32 PM
I see one of the usual "experts" continues to demonstrate how little he knows about low phase noise clocks.

How do I get his job?
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: seagreen on October 02, 2014, 05:47:20 PM
Chief Inspector Dreyfus: How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!

Inspector Clouseau: It's very simple... all he has to do is enlist.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on October 03, 2014, 10:55:57 PM
Almost like how does an idiot get to post nonsense on an Internet forum.

He registers.

We really found one, in the MBA.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: seagreen on October 04, 2014, 05:46:19 AM
Correction: He found us.

Unless it's all a spoof.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on October 04, 2014, 10:14:04 PM
I have no idea what his problem is. I have tons of email, from him, trying to get me to back his...................uh..............stupid idea. He tried to get Phred's support, but luckily, the only address he had for Herr Dieckmann bounced. (Of course, he wants me to contact him. Like I need to, in order to know what Phred will think.)

Yes, if we could just all measure and categorize this stuff, we would all get rich. In his world, we already have, and will not share our non-existent data. If he has a degree, he needs to ask for a refund.

Or not. Since I doubt any place, anywhere on earth, could have spawned this stupid idea.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: seagreen on October 05, 2014, 02:00:58 AM
Perhaps he works for one of those former regional phone companies.  You know - the ones who now are cellular companies.  They all believe that they are entitled to as much of your money as they can get since they are close to being monopolies. 

Those guys have frameworks.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on October 21, 2014, 11:21:53 AM
Yeah, I thought this guy was supposed to be smart..............

Quote
Added daughter boards and more Xtals. I will probably end up building a phase noise test set out of this stuff. To that end I will be using varactor diodes in series with the crystals to be able to tune them.

Uh.......genius................

We all tried that, long time ago. And the results were ok, but not great. Get with the 21st century, or stop calling yourself a design consultant.

(Remember, this is also the guy who criticizes me, since he does not believe my results. Well, not if you use that crappy method he won't. Good grief.)

In other news..................I think the MBA has left the building. Finally.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: MystereoN on October 21, 2014, 02:03:08 PM
If someone uses 1k/470uF RC filtered TL431 as voltage reference in his follower regulator and calling this "low noise regulator" with 0.7nv/rtHz noise (simulation results) for feeding Xtal clocks, he can be sure I won't consider him as design consultant neither hire him.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on October 21, 2014, 06:33:58 PM
Well, that may not be as bad as you want to believe..............

I won't tell you what I power all my test oscillators with.

Hint: it has 5 small SMD pads, and is really cheap.

In front of that is................I better not tell you.............
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: MystereoN on October 22, 2014, 02:03:44 AM
There's more than one way to skin a cat..... but do you believe everything simulation software is telling you?  :o
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on October 23, 2014, 09:23:07 AM
That is why I do not use simulation s/w.

That..........and I am too stupid to figure out how to make one work.

The point is................he can claim any number he wants...............the dirty truth is that is probably good enough. You would gag if you saw what I use. Yet, I get really good results.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: MystereoN on October 24, 2014, 12:56:22 PM
Interesting.
Every time I changed power supply for clock, there was difference. Sometimes worse, sometimes better, but it was always audible.

After extensive listening test with friends, all 3 pin regulators and modern super-duper SMT 3, 4, 5, 6 or 8 pin regulators were rejected and two regs came into great finale:
a) linear regulator with PNP and mysterius opamp from Linear Technology
b) shunt regulator based on fast opamp from Analog Devices.

Majority of friends rejected linear regulator because "too slow, music not flowing, music too sticky to the speaker, to much polished, highs are not OK, ...blah, blah..." and prefered shunt regulator. For me it was draw, some songs were better with linear reg and some were better with shunt. I could live with either of those two.

If I remember there is "Stimpy regulator" thread or something similar. PCB for aforementioned shunt should be inside.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on October 24, 2014, 01:43:27 PM
A buddy, who shall remain nameless and anonymous, mainly because he has better sense to read any of these forums (or so he says, but not sure that I believe him) likes to not only play around with the regulators, but the bypass caps. I have tons of e-mails from him, detailing how this cap sounds mushy, and that one sounds thin, etc.

He can not believe that I can not see any differences, with any of this, when measuring phase noise. It is true: I can not. Now, if he says he can hear a difference, and you claim the same, I am not going to contradict you. I will simply say that once you get to a certain level of performance, you can not measure the difference.

If we just had a framework, I'm sure you could find the measurements, right?
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: MystereoN on October 24, 2014, 06:08:31 PM
Framework...is...work.... work is not good and framework is even worse...please go away with framework.....no framework for me, I don't care.

I just learned my lesson in digital audio, whatever you do to the clock or clock distribution chip or clock power supply...is audible. Thanks to you and your lessons.
But i can't draw conclucions or establish a framework from this. What work best in one situation, could not work in another situation. Anyone should listen and thrust his own ears, this is the only way.

If some moron want to create framework from this, I don't care. His problem, not mine. Whatever floats his boat, I just don't care about framework. Actually, I hate all kind of frames  :)
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on November 23, 2014, 11:13:37 PM
They're still at it...........and just as screwed up as they were at Greaser's Palace.

Why in the hell are they using U. fl. connectors? Nothing like using some flimsy crap designed to work at 2 GHz....................gee.................yeah, that will really keep radiation and leakage to a minimum.

"Use some  copper, son. You'll enjoy it better."
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: MystereoN on November 24, 2014, 03:17:51 PM
Since we're talking clocks.....

Quote
Since the really important stuff, for digital audio is the stuff below 1 Hz.............

Reads logical and reasonable......if you manage to improve phase noise at 0.1 Hz, then phase noise at 1 Hz....10 Hz.....100 Hz will be lower too.
How step is slope from 0.1 to 1 Hz? 30dB per decade? 40?
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on November 25, 2014, 06:26:33 PM
Usually, it is 30 dB/dec. Sometimes 35...........sometimes 40.............it varies, but 30 dB is the norm.

Now, as to what happens at 0.01 Hz..........

Yes, if you lower that, you would think what happens at 1 Hz (or 10 Hz) also goes down.

THAT IS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE!

Think of it the other way around: if 1 Hz goes up, 0.01 Hz goes up. But, there are tricks that lower 0.01 Hz that have no effect at 1 Hz.

(Think a case where the noise now goes up at 40-45 dB/dec, not 30 dB/dec.)

Jitter at 0.01 Hz is combination of the crystal, and some other external factors. No, I do not know the exact cause. The gang of idiots I hang out with spent 6 months just trying to find out there was a cause. We had hints something was up, but as our original gear only went down to 0.1 Hz, it was hard to see anything going on. Once we could look down to 0.01 Hz.................WOW!!! Some really interesting things going on.

Some folks (maybe some guy who listens on K-horns) will never be able to tell any of this, since their systems do not have the ability to resolve such audible nuances, and will kvetch, saying it is "fairy tales". To them, it probably is. I know they have never heard a good clock, because they do not have the ability to build a good clock. You can not build a good clock without modern phase noise gear. It is simply not possible. (Implies that 99% of what we think is important to make a low jitter clock for digital audio is a lot of useless crap.)

And even if you do have modern phase noise gear, you may not have an audio system that is up to the task of being able to tell any of this.

Sadly, my system may fall into this category. But, I personally do not care, and it does not stop me from trying to build a better clock.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: MystereoN on November 26, 2014, 11:42:44 AM
Tnx.
I was asking because of pic bellow, where lowest freq is defined as "random walk" with 40dB/decade.
Pic courtesy of NIST technical note 1337.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on November 26, 2014, 08:06:48 PM
Their explanation makes as much sense as anything I can say. IOW, there is nothing about it that contradicts our measurements.

"Other environment effects" sums it up as best as I can. All I can say it really does exist, and there is nothing (at least that "we" were taught) that even brings up the possibility it exists, let alone how to deal with it.

So, the bottom line is "other environmental effects" can cause a rise in the really low frequency stuff, and reducing it has no effect on 1 Hz and up.

Make sense now?
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: MystereoN on November 27, 2014, 06:26:22 AM
Yes, with your explanation and pic above it make sense now.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: seagreen on November 28, 2014, 05:34:13 AM
This brings into question what the actual system response is to those low frequencies.  Most amplifiers will not pass .01 Hz straight through, for a host of reasons.  Speakers?  Maybe, maybe not. 

So, that suggests non-linearities caused by low frequency modulation, doesn't it?

That's hardly unreasonable, given that thermal modulation in most all amplifier stages has been shown to be a problem.  That's measured in large portions or seconds or even multiple seconds.  (Walt Jung has actually published measurements of the effects.)

Plus, most everybody has observed audible changes by changing the mechanical supports under a DAC box, haven't they? 

OK, that probably stretches things too far.  I guess it's hard to have an open mind when your dogma is constantly pissing on you.

Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: Gen. Dreedle on November 30, 2014, 07:39:45 PM
That is what most  folks can not get past: you are hearing the effect(s) of the modulation, not the actual modulation. (Yes, if your dogma is doing you-know-what...........well, you have problems that you are unwilling to admit.)

How "random walk" modulation affects localization.............I would be lying if I even tried to render a guess. I just know it is real, and have heard it, many many times. (I strongly suspect guys who listen to K-horns are never going to be able to hear any of that, so they will kvetch. Tough garbanzo beans.)

I can say the effect that we can measure clearly has a cycle in the 4-5 second range.

Interestingly, The Devil noticed a similar problem, in the design phase of the Vendetta phono preamp. That proves it is all nonsense and bravo sierra.
Title: Re: Is this "Phase IV of Idiot Alert" or "Phase II of.................."
Post by: seagreen on December 03, 2014, 11:18:03 AM
I've read that a subtle thing animals do when localizing a sound source is to move their heads little bits to change the relative arrival times of the incoming sound.  You can certainly watch dogs do that.  Maybe not dogmas, though.

So, I bet that if a listener's seat was moving around at a slow rate, they'd hear the effects.

Is low frequency modulation any different?

Speaking of K-horns...  Paul Klipsch his own self published papers about these effects in loudspeakers back in the 60's in the Journal of the AES.